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If you are a citizen of any EU Member State, I implore you to consider signing the Tax-the-Rich citizens' initiative:
https://www.tax-the-rich.eu/

The idea is to tax the super rich and then use the money for climate transition. :blobcathappypaws:

This is an official EU citizens' initiative, meaning that if it reaches certain thresholds, it *will have to be* considered by the EU institutions. That's a really powerful tool, if actually used.

So we should use it. :blobcatcool:

🧵⬇️

#TaxTheRich #EU

Tax The Rich

Nous voulons un impôt européen sur les grandes fortunes pour financer la transition climatique et sociale et aider les pays victimes des dérèglements climatiques.
Tax The Rich
#eu #taxtherich
Ten wpis został zedytowany (12 miesiące temu)
Witold Kowalik
Yes it is - I've already signed it.
And also an honourable mention about the people of France: nosz gizdy pierońsko szybkie, tak trza żyć!
Robert Drózd
przeczytałem tekst propozycji, no i nie widzę co rozumieją przez "large-scale wealth". Bo to się wszystko fajnie zaczyna, ale ostatecznie ci naprawdę bogaci się wywiną, a potem media jęczą, ze podatek dotyka klasę średnią.
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
to nie jest propozycja tekstu dyrektywy, to jest propozycja pomysłu rozwiązania. Takie (bez wątpienia ważne!) kwestie są do ustalenia w samym procesie legislacyjnym, o ile do niego dojdzie.

Jednocześnie trwają przecież odrębne prace nad walką z unikaniem opodatkowania. Nie wszystko naraz. Krok po kroku.

Dla mnie fakt, że jednym z inicjatorów jest Piketty jest dość dobrym powodem, by tej inicjatywie zaufać.
Ten wpis został zedytowany (12 miesiące temu)
Oliwier Jaszczyszyn
@rysiek: two things.

first, a Facebook tracker on a site telling to tax the rich
two, site doesn't work with NoScript
@Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
Ten wpis został zedytowany (12 miesiące temu)
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@slavistapl here's the europa.eu site:
https://eci.ec.europa.eu/038/public/

Yeah, we can't win them all.

You are of course more than welcome to go *harumph* and decide that a tool that is actually potentially effective in *simultaneously* dealing with wealth inequality and climate change is just not usable for you because of these flaws.

Or, you can — as I did — fire up a Tor Browser, sign the petition, and be on your way. It's really not that hard. If you care so much about privacy, you have ways. 🤷‍♀️

European Citizens' Initiative

Give your support !
eci.ec.europa.eu
@Oliwier Jaszczyszyn
MiKlo:~/citizen4.eu$💙💛
@Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦 @Oliwier Jaszczyszyn
Also, I recommend sending a feedback using a form on the last screen about the lack of options to share other than corporate social media.
(I sent one).

screenshot - feedback proposal about fediverse sharing on page of EUROPEAN CITIZENS’ INITIATIVE

#fedigov #EuropeanCitizensInitiative
#fedigov #EuropeanCitizensInitiative @Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦 @Oliwier Jaszczyszyn
Oliwier Jaszczyszyn
@miklo: heck, I forgot. Next time I’ll sign such petition I’ll give a friendly reminder.

@rysiek
@MiKlo:~/citizen4.eu$💙💛 @Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
Evil :3 Floofling lunya :neocat_floof_flag_trans:
I'm minor and scared of giving id ​:neocat_floof_sad:​
Natasha Nox 🇺🇦🇵🇸
@sleepybisexual Does it use the official eID system? Last thing I heard was that it is rather safe.
@Evil :3 Floofling lunya :neocat_floof_flag_trans:
Evil :3 Floofling lunya :neocat_floof_flag_trans:
I don't even have an id card yet
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@sleepybisexual @Natanox I don't think minors are allowed to sign at all, either.

Which is something to think about in the context that both of these issues will affect young people particularly badly, long-term. 🙄
@Natasha Nox 🇺🇦🇵🇸 @Evil :3 Floofling lunya :neocat_floof_flag_trans:
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@Natanox I believe if the Member State of your citizenship does have an official eID system, then it does? Not 100% sure.

@sleepybisexual
@Natasha Nox 🇺🇦🇵🇸 @Evil :3 Floofling lunya :neocat_floof_flag_trans:
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@00Ni yeah, and the JS-heavy website. Can't have nice things, can we. *sigh*
@00Ni
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
Yes, it's a JS-heavy website with a webdesign that makes my eyes hurt. Sigh, can't have nice things, can we?

You can skip right to the signing by going to the relevant Citizens' Initiatives website on europa.eu here:
https://eci.ec.europa.eu/038/public/

Both sites seem to work fine in a Tor Browser, and the signing requires solving a self-hosted captcha (no Big Tech captcha involved, it seems), so at least that's good.

#TaxTheRich #EU

European Citizens' Initiative

Give your support !
eci.ec.europa.eu
#eu #taxtherich
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
> It could never work, because the rich can move / have already moved their wealth elsewhere.

Any such issue is very complex. There are always several things that need to happen to "fix" them.

So, if you react like this to any single attempt ­— "this can't work, as there are other issues to solve first" — then nothing ever gets fixed.

That's basically nihilism. You do you, but if you are so certain it can't work, why even bother commenting on this at all? 🤔
Riley S. Faelan
Most countries tax their residents even if that wealth is outside the country. German tax authorities, for example, have been known to purchase evidence related to the Panama Papers release for the specific purpose of being able to levy taxes on people who live in Germany but tried to hide their wealth and income in an offshore site.
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
> Who exactly would get taxed and to what extent? What would be considered "excess wealth"?

Fair question, not clearly answered.

But this is a very early step in a potential legislative process. This question would get hammered out throughout that process, if it gets in.

It's not like we're voting on specific terms here. Merely saying: "yeah that sounds like something we should spend some EU time figuring out properly."

So, that sounds reasonable to me. Plus, Thomas Pikkety is involved. 👀
Riley S. Faelan
I'm inclined to argue that an optimal, self-regulating, taxation level might be determined based on criteria such as a percentile, such as applying wealth tax starting from a level that exceeds, the minimum wealth level of the top 5% of wealthy people in a country for a short-to-medium term, or something like 3 standard deviations above the population's average for a long-term approach.

In an ideal world, the idea should be neutralising the wealth-based social stratification, so I'm entirely okay with a system whereby a zillionaire can reduce their wealth tax by making all the poor people around them a little bit richer and thereby nudging the average upwards.
Alberto Cottica
not true, the definition is quite clear. The example for Belgium: you would be taxable if you have, NOT counting your house and any assets committed to your business, over 1.25 million euro.
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
I cannot find this anywhere on the website. What am I missing?

Nevermind, found it, the FAQ.
Ten wpis został zedytowany (12 miesiące temu)
Alberto Cottica
yes, the website could be a little more intuitive.
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
Update — there *is* a relatively clear answer to this, in the FAQ:
https://www.tax-the-rich.eu/home#faq

> The criteria for defining an "ultra-rich" should vary from one EU country to another, due to the economic, fiscal and social differences between member states. In Belgium, for example, we propose that anyone with 1.25 million euros in assets in addition to their main home and business assets should qualify as "ultra-rich".

So there we are!

Tax The Rich

Nous voulons un impôt européen sur les grandes fortunes pour financer la transition climatique et sociale et aider les pays victimes des dérèglements climatiques.
Tax The Rich
Andreas
There's an answer on that website and it's very wish-y-wash-y unfortuantely.

The example is someone in Belgium owning 1.25M€ in addition to a house being considered "ultra-rich".

That's an interesting data point but I suspect that is *way* too low a barrier for many people.
Exceeding 1.25M€ is easily done by inheriting a house that was worth 50.000€ when it was built 60 years ago.

And people who are looking at potentially receiving at such an inheritance are going to go "hmmm, that might hit me too. Better not sign!". And I can totally understand that because in general everybody is always looking out for themselves first.

I do not understand why these initiatives are not putting out a statement such as "we consider people having liquidity of more than 5M€ to be ultra-rich and are interested in taxing these!".
That's a clear statement and the cut-off is far enough removed from the possibly-rich-enough-after-inheriting to not alienate that big part of the population.

Instead we get these non-answers covered in relative terms resulting in a lot of people going "yeah, thank. not signing...".
J. "Henry" Waugh
I would also reply to "the rich can just move elsewhere!"

Governments know this, and have an incentive to act collectively. Slowly but surely, they are:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_minimum_corporate_tax_rate
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@jhwgh1968 what I love about this is that this is basically governments doing collective bargaining with the capitalist class. :blobcatlaugh:
@J. "Henry" Waugh
Nicole Parsons
The problem of mobile anti-democracy money is being addressed by Biden's rapid approvals of tax treaties.

There are fewer and fewer places for the rich to hide their money and evade taxation, as a result.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/07/01/statement-by-president-joe-biden-on-todays-agreement-of-130-countries-to-support-a-global-minimum-tax-for-the-worlds-largest-corporations/

Europe could do the same. Support a global minimum tax.

Statement by President Joe Biden on Today’s Agreement of 130 Countries to Support a Global Minimum Tax for the World’s Largest Corporations | The White House

Today marks an important step in moving the global economy forward to be more equitable for workers and middle class families in the United States and around the world.
The White House
Dusty Attic
Even without being nihilistic, one can take a rather cautious approach to this proposal.

Putting aside discussion about feasibility, details of implementation, and the risk of unintended consequences, I'm uneasy about the way some of the desired outcomes of this proposal are framed.
By implying that "a just ecological and social transition" is conditioned on the contributions, albeit involuntary, of the rich, you just reinforce the same ideas that stand behind gold visa / citizenship schemes, EU tax heavens, and the incredible power of philanthropic whitewashing.

They're rich because they're better than all of us; they're better than all of us because they're rich, and if you keep insisting that this is a circular argument, they're the only way to save us from climate disaster and societal collapse. So clearly, they're better than all of us, their wealth is totally deserved, and you should believe whatever e/acc bullshit they sell at the moment.

Taxing can be the beginning of a discussion about wealth inequality (if I recall correctly, that was one of the arguments behind the global wealth tax in Piketty's Capital in the Twenty-First Century) It can be used to adjust the balance of power (hell, if "moving wealth elsewhere" makes even a small dent in their ability to shape policies, then it is a win in my book). However, seeing it as necessary for implementing essential policies is a slippery slope. Ultimately, balance sheets are not the problem. The problem is that we have policies that keep real resources from where we (as in 99%) need them and divert them where they benefit a few by, among other things, giving them control over the policies that make them wealthy.

As @pluralistic wrote in Walkaway (https://craphound.com/category/walkaway/):

"If there are rich and poor, you need a story to explain why some have
so much and so many have little. You need a story that explains this is
fair. Last century, the rich made things stable by giving some money
back, tax and education and so on. Welfare state. People could
become rich. Invent something, you could become rich, even if
you weren't born rich.

But those zottas—not zottas yet, actually, just gigas or megas—only
let their money be taxed because it was cheaper than paying for private
security and official surveillance they needed to keep hold of wealth if
the system grew unstable because of the gap between them and everyone."

Let's push for changes, but speak out loud why we need them.
@Cory Doctorow
Dusty Attic
And, in totally unrelated news ‒ „More than 250 billionaires and millionaires are demanding that the political elite meeting for the World Economic Forum in Davos introduce wealth taxes to help pay for better public services around the world.

“Our request is simple: we ask you to tax us, the very richest in society,” the wealthy people said in an open letter to world leaders. “This will not fundamentally alter our standard of living, nor deprive our children, nor harm our nations’ economic growth. But it will turn extreme and unproductive private wealth into an investment for our common democratic future.“

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/17/wealth-tax-super-rich-davos-abigail-disney-brian-cox-valerie-rockefeller

@rysiek

Tax our wealth, super-rich tell politicians at Davos

Abigail Disney, Brian Cox and Valerie Rockefeller among signatories of open letter condemning inequality
Rupert Neate (The Guardian)
@Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦

szescstopniudostępnił to.

Chris Real
@dustyattic
Powerful people speaking with common sense is so rare that it almost scares me.

I have trouble believing that they don't have some kind of hidden agenda.
@Dusty Attic
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@_chris_real @dustyattic they do. The hidden agenda is "we can't stop this, let's try to steer it at least a bit". So they make a gesture of "good will" and then at a critical moment go "but that's going too far".

That's fine. It's still progress.
@Chris Real @Dusty Attic
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@_chris_real @dustyattic by the way, I am not discounting the possibility that some of them are doing this based on no cynical calculation, but an actual decision that this is simply the right thing to do. It's worth recognizing that such people do exist and would probably be in that group as well.
@Chris Real @Dusty Attic
Chris Real
@dustyattic

This is a situation where both things could be true.

Many capitalists approach wealth as a zero-sum game, but some might also understand that it doesn't have to be.

And others might be beginning to understand that it helps to have a good reputation with the public, when the environment is more valuable than zeros on spreadsheets.

The Russian tzars and their children children were said to have many valuable jewels sewn into their garments, when they were shot to death.
@Dusty Attic
INPC
@dustyattic they can already pay the tax by not using a bunch of tax avoidance schemes, not living off cheap debt to avoid income tax. It doesn’t need new policies.

‘Scuse the pun but it’s a bit rich coming from this lot.
@Dusty Attic
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@mxtthxw @dustyattic it might still leave them paying way less tax than what the wealth tax would make them (and every other member of that elite club) pay.
@INPC @Dusty Attic
Dusty Attic
@mxtthxw Nobody expects them to support workers of the world to "organise as a class, take possession of the means of production, abolish the wage system, and live in harmony with the earth".

But it is quite symptomatic that you don't hear calls for fighting market concentration, regulatory capture, corporate tax evasion, antilabor practices. Not to mention introducing meaningful taxation on inheritance of large estates.

You know, all these small things that make accumulation and preservations of such fortunes possible.

@rysiek
@INPC @Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
Cassandrich
@mxtthxw @dustyattic It does need new policies. Voluntarily disadvantaging themselves vs rival elites just gives the rival elites who are more malicious more power to do us harm. They need taxation of all their peers, not just of the "good guy rich", for it to be of benefit.
@INPC @Dusty Attic
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@dalias there we go. Spot on. I wanted to say this, but couldn't quite put it in words.

@mxtthxw @dustyattic
@INPC @Cassandrich @Dusty Attic
CoopDot 💻 𐑒𐑵𐑐𐑛𐑪𐑑
> The rich can move their wealth

Yes, but moving the wealth can also cost money. Making paying the tax maybe the cheapest option or not expensive enough to be worth deviating from already set plans.

Some people are "allergic" to taxes, but otherwise, one should not waste too much time on this point
Nafnlaus 🇮🇸 🇺🇦
No, it's realism. You can't just propose a bill without first gaming out how the other side is going to respond.

Pretend that you're a rich person who adores their money and already spends their days jetsetting around the world. What tricks would YOU use? You can afford all the greatest accounting and legal minds in the world to help you come up with them, so they're going to be good!

If you haven't gamed this out, what you have is worthless.
Nafnlaus 🇮🇸 🇺🇦
Because the outcomes of the countermeasures may not be just neutral, they may actually end up harming ordinary people far more than they harm the wealthy.

The point of legislation isn't "showy stunts", it's "actual outcomes".

Game it out and defend your work, or stop wasting your breath and people's time.
Ten wpis został zedytowany (11 miesiące temu)
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@nafnlaus if you do think htis could harm people, please be specific on how.
@Nafnlaus 🇮🇸 🇺🇦
Nafnlaus 🇮🇸 🇺🇦
It depends entirely on the specific countermeasure in response to the specific policy, but can range from the money and jobs just leaving, companies wasting money on countermeasures rather than salaries, countermeasures leading to *reduced* revenues, and so forth.

Again: you need to *game out what countermeasure will be applied to what policy*.
Nafnlaus 🇮🇸 🇺🇦
Lets just say that not only have you come up with some brilliant unescapable plan to tax the rich more but even keep them from leaving the country! Infallable, right?

Okay, now play a rich person. "Fuck this. Okay, now it's no longer "my money" and "my luxury", it's now "my company's". *I* don't have a private jet, but *my company* does. *I* don't have a beach house in Fiji, *my company* has a *small office* in Fiji. Etc.

Game out countermeasures, or your proposal is worthless.
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@nafnlaus so you come in here to comment on a specific proposal put forth by Thomas Piketty, among others, and your comment is "game it out"?

No specific point, just: "maybe you should think of possible consequences"?

You honestly think that people behind this proposal, with years of experience in the field, haven't thought of that? :blobcatcoffee:

Anyway, the whole "rich people will leave the country" thing is a story rich people keep telling to not get taxed:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hueRrG_u83Q

Calling The Rich Out on Their Bluff

https://act.dsausa.org/donate/joinNYC?source=ttrhttps://taxtherichny.com/contact-your-reps/https://investinourny.org/2023-campaignhttps://strongforall.org/Di...
YouTube
@Nafnlaus 🇮🇸 🇺🇦
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@nafnlaus and note, I am not saying anyone should accept anything just based on some real or assumed authority of anyone.

But coming into a thread about a proposal like that and just assuming that nobody got the idea to "game it out" before submitting, especially with people like Piketty being involved, is quite a thing to do!

Unless you have a specific point to make, a specific criticism beyond "the rich will move" (which they won't), we're done here.
@Nafnlaus 🇮🇸 🇺🇦
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@hq1 no no, you are actually being quite cynical about it.

That's exactly the kind of nihilism that the Bezoses, Musks, Zuckerbergs, and Gates of this world hope to get people to espouse — and it's scary how effective it is.

Here's the thing: any such issue is very complex. There are always several things that need to happen to "fix" them.

So, if you react like this to any single attempt ­— "this can't work, as there are other issues to solve first" — then nothing ever gets fixed.

@wikiyu
@Adam @wikiyu
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@hq1 what *always* dumbfounds me with such responses as yours is this, though:

Okay, let's say you're right. Let's say that this has no way of fixing anything what-so-ever. That it will have no effect at all.

Here's my question: why spend the time discouraging people from doing it, then?

Like, if you truly believe in what you said, there is no point in such discouragement. It's inevitable it won't work. Why the urge to make such a comment? It strikes me as a definition of pointless.

@wikiyu
@Adam @wikiyu
Sheogorath
@hq1 @wikiyu They sure will, but it will be less convenient. And then the next policy comes around. It's a race and you can only win if you start.

There is also an amount of rich people who will rather pay the tax than finding another loophole. Sure they won't be happy about it, and that's already something.
@Adam @wikiyu
Tree of Life
We in the UK don't tax the rich. We make them Prime Minister, and then ex-Prime Ministers wonder aloud on live television at their "huge brain" .
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@sheogorath here's yet another way of looking at it, stolen from I think David Graeber:

At some level of wealth it becomes completely abstract.

Zero here, zero there make no *real* difference. The only difference that matters at that level is a financial dick measuring contest: who has more, who has less? Who is first on list of the wealthiest people on the planet?

If everyone of these billionaires is taxed the same, this does not re-order that ladder.

@hq1 @wikiyu
@Adam @Sheogorath @wikiyu
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@hq1 I am saying that this is as good an attempt as any. Maybe it will work. It only costs a signature.

The point of this initiative is that a new tax is imposed on the super wealthy, and that tax is then earmarked for fighting climate crisis. I like that construction. Obviously it's a long way to an actual legislation, but one has to start somewhere.

@wikiyu
@Adam @wikiyu
Leszek Karlik
@hq1 @wikiyu

A lot of money is spent on convincing people that wealth taxes don't work because the wealthy can escape to another state.

And then when wealth taxes are implemented they prove to work, because moving has a significant cost, and if your wealth is built on local networks of power, which it frequently is, moving also destroys wealth.
@Adam @wikiyu

Witold Kowalikudostępnił to.

Marko
I don't see how EU could reach what you describe. Really rich already have all their wealth in tax friendly countries.
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@pramarko https://mstdn.social/@rysiek/111755288713219071 🤷‍♀️

Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦

2024-01-14 16:39:37


@hq1 what *always* dumbfounds me with such responses as yours is this, though:

Okay, let's say you're right. Let's say that this has no way of fixing anything what-so-ever. That it will have no effect at all.

Here's my question: why spend the time discouraging people from doing it, then?

Like, if you truly believe in what you said, there is no point in such discouragement. It's inevitable it won't work. Why the urge to make such a comment? It strikes me as a definition of pointless.

@wikiyu

@Marko
Adam
@Leszek_Karlik

Curious to learn about any examples. Can you cite some? Again, not trying to be cynical/sarcastic

@rysiek @wikiyu
@Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦 @Leszek Karlik @wikiyu
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@hq1 90% top tax rate in the USA before 1964 or so. That's one of the things that helped end the Great Depression and create the post-war prosperity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_taxation_in_the_United_States#16th_Amendment

@Leszek_Karlik @wikiyu
@Adam @Leszek Karlik @wikiyu
Adam
@Leszek_Karlik

> And then when wealth taxes are implemented they prove to work

I meant that specifically, you made it sound like it has happened somewhere in the world? Genuinely no idea. I share the wishful thinking, if that’s what it is.

@rysiek @wikiyu
@Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦 @Leszek Karlik @wikiyu
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@paco 💯

It is perfectly reasonable to say "not that" even if one does not have a good solution. But that has to be related to some specific bad outcome.

Saying "not that, just because I don't think it would work, but no I have no specific bad outcome I am concerned with, and no I have no alternative" is what gets me.

Esp. when it's delivered in an authoritative tone of "this will never work."

Again, if "this will never work", why even bother opposing it? Just sit back and enjoy being right!
@Clark W. Griswold #resist
Krzysztof Stenografow
i don't want rich people to be extra taxed for the so called climate projects which are in fact their fake activity to rule the masses. So many parasites feed on them and in fact support evil rich moguls to turn masses i to slavery.
Krzysztof Stenografow
well not yet. But we shall wait. The nature finally will do.
Florida as it gets ~
PROBLEMS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgVXBEeD6pQ

EV's being - a solution of sorts.. imho

Special Report: Epstein, Maxwell, and Blackmail - What everyone is missing about the scandal.

This episode revisits one of the most impactful exposés we’ve ever done on The Narativ – confirming Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell’s industrial-scale ...
YouTube
João Cachada
hello! This is an interesting initiative, but I'm wondering if there's any more information on how they plan to determine the "ultra-rich". The only thing I could find on the website is that they plan on determining it based on each country's economic context - in Belgium they would consider anyone with 1.25 million in assets ultra-rich. Did I miss more info anywhere? To me this would be critical info to know the exact formula, and how progressive the tax would be.
Ten wpis został zedytowany (12 miesiące temu)
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@jcachada this is a fair question; one that I have not found a clear answer to as well.

But the way I see it, this is an extremely early step in a potential legislative process. This issue will be hammered out throughout that process, if it ever actually gets the required support.

It's not like we're voting on a specific terms here. Just saying "yeah that sounds like something we should spend some EU time figuring out properly." So, that sounds reasonable to me.

That, and Pikkety is involved.
@João Cachada
João Cachada
That's a fair answer. The biggest concern I have would be if this hammers the upper middle class and is not aggressive enough on the real ultra rich. Someone with 1.25 million in assets in Belgium and a billionaire are not remotely in the same league - I would want the "progressive" aspect to be very aggressive.

Agree those are particulars though, and those discussions can't be had without starting somewhere. This is probably as good a starting point as any. Beats inertia at least 👍
Ten wpis został zedytowany (12 miesiące temu)
CelloMom On Cars
Nederlanders:
Hier is een mooi Europees initiatief;
Tekenen is zo gebeurd:

"This initiative calls on the European Commission to establish a European tax on great wealth.
The contribution would be used to combat climate change and inequality."

https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/2023/000006_en
#TaxTheRich

@rysiek
#taxtherich @Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
Parade du Grotesque 💀
It's very doubtful anything will come out of that initiative, but I signed it nonetheless. Thanks!
Marko
@hq1 @wikiyu It's very popular to promote "taxing the rich", it's been done numerous times throughout the history. It sounds as a no-brainer, but more often than not, such efforts result in spending much time and energy to achieve nothing useful at best. Usually it results in higher taxes for the middle class with not much benefit for those in need. That's what half a century taught me, but I encourage everybody to study similar efforts and their effects before pushing such initiatives.
@Adam @wikiyu
Paul Schoe
Maybe he is rich himself and he wants to demotivate people to sign for this European 'Tax The Rich' initiative.

@rysiek @hq1 @wikiyu
@Adam @Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦 @wikiyu
X
it'll end the only possible way: they will emigrate to where taxes are lower.

it's happening right now in California.

https://www.bankier.pl/wiadomosc/Kalifornijski-exodus-trwa-Powodem-za-wysokie-podatki-8675441.html

Kalifornijski exodus trwa. Powodem za wysokie podatki

Dziesiątki tysięcy ludzi, głównie bogatych, opuszczają Kalifornie z powodu wysokich podatków. W minionym roku stan stracił 75 423 mieszkańców.
Redaktor Bankier.pl (Bankier.pl)
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@x https://mstdn.social/@rysiek/111755417391585263 🤷‍♀️

Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦

2024-01-14 17:12:20


> It could never work, because the rich can move / have already moved their wealth elsewhere.

Any such issue is very complex. There are always several things that need to happen to "fix" them.

So, if you react like this to any single attempt ­— "this can't work, as there are other issues to solve first" — then nothing ever gets fixed.

That's basically nihilism. You do you, but if you are so certain it can't work, why even bother commenting on this at all? 🤔

@X
:gnu:+bonifartius 𒂼𒄄
> let's have the people who violently rob us violently rob people we are envious of some more. then put that money into a bespoke giant money burning bureaucracy machine which, under the guise of "fighting climate change", will redistribute most of the money to people who were the best at backstabbing their way up. then use the remainder of the money to improve the system of violently robbing everyone.

let's totally do that! :blobcatcool:
mhack
@hq1 @Leszek_Karlik @wikiyu

New York decided to increase taxes on the most wealthy, the only people leaving New York are the people that can't afford housing prices.

"The report also found that affluent residents who left New York did not appear to have been driven away by recent tax increases."

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/05/nyregion/nyc-working-class-tax-rich.html
@Adam @Leszek Karlik @wikiyu
Ten wpis został zedytowany (12 miesiące temu)
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@stupidjim ah there it is! Thank you. That site is so damn difficult to navigate!
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
the interesting thing is that the USA used to have that, sans the climate transition part:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_taxation_in_the_United_States#16th_Amendment
Ten wpis został zedytowany (12 miesiące temu)
stonehead
Signed!

(Funny that the site uses all kinds of modern identification, but when it asks for a mail address, you can't use a plus sign in that. Boo!)
Ben Rosengart
@akareilly Server’s melted, alas
@Wren Reilly
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@fivetonsflax @akareilly seems to be working fine here, both the initiative's own website, and the proposal page on europa.eu infra.
@Wren Reilly @Ben Rosengart
Ben Rosengart
@akareilly Huh, thanks. When I click through to support, I get a multilingual message that the server is not available. Maybe a geographic lockout? Although an EU citizen, I am located in the US.
@Wren Reilly
Ben Rosengart
I got further! But bounced off this requirement:

If you reside outside Germany, you need to have registered your current permanent residence at the relevant German diplomatic representation.

I think I need to invest some more effort before I can participate democratically in EU and German spheres.

I appreciate your help.
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@Hans_Slonzok great! You are welcome to not sign this, you are even welcome to start your own Citizens' Initiative. I might even sign that one. 🤷‍♀️
DeterioratedStucco
Can't sign, due to the malice of my government.
Boosting - hope it helps.
trusty falxter 🧠
Trapped in a loop:
- identify with eID
- service timed out
- alternatively create account
- thanks, now you have to identify with eID, nevertheless
- service timed out
- 🙄
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@flxtr that's crap. Might make sense to ping the operators of the signature collection:
https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/privacy-policy-concerning-signatories-personal-data-collected-using-central-online-collection_en#9-Contact-information

Privacy policy concerning signatories' personal data collected using the central online collection system

Privacy statement providing information on the European citizens' initiative (ECI) Processing operation of signatoriesʼ data collected as part of statements of support through the Commission Central Online Collection System
European Citizens' Initiative
@trusty falxter 🧠
C0ppertop
I’d be more draconian than simply taxing the rich.
Jesse
I love it, I already signed!

For all those people saying "the rich will just move if you tax them" this amazing video explains why that is false:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hueRrG_u83Q

Calling The Rich Out on Their Bluff

https://act.dsausa.org/donate/joinNYC?source=ttrhttps://taxtherichny.com/contact-your-reps/https://investinourny.org/2023-campaignhttps://strongforall.org/Di...
YouTube
Matthew M :risc_os_verified:
If I was in the EU I would be signing this! I think this is the best idea I've seen for a while!
wolf maahn
Hi, this morning I shared your posting here and did post it on X and bluesky with very good feedback and of course I signed it myself. But strange enough: On the related EU initiative details site ( https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/2023/000006_en ) the number of signatures (‚Statements of support’ / Germany) has NOT changed since this morning… 🤔
Ten wpis został zedytowany (11 miesiące temu)
Schrottkatze
@wolfmaahn I think that these counters in the table may be manually updated by the organisers every now and then? Since it's in the middle of text etc...
@wolf maahn
wolf maahn
@schrottkatze I thought so, too, but wouldn’t that be unbelievably ‚retro‘ ?
@Schrottkatze
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@wolfmaahn @schrottkatze it might not be manual, but automatically crunched every N hours, for example.
@wolf maahn @Schrottkatze
JesseTong
I think we should also tax more on the corporations more since it's a way billionaires can avoid high personal income tax; and also start to properly fine those corporations for the wrongs they has done for some percentage of their revenue each year. Every year they don't comply, extend the fine to another few years. :blobcatcool:
Kevin Lyda
wish the EU/French would learn not every address has a street number.
Tofu Golem
If we don't reverse 4 decades of wealth redistribution (in which the wealth gap grew out of control), voters will keep turning to any demagogue who promises to make things better, and we will continue to slide into fascism.
U.Lancier
Tax the heirs.

If someone inherits more than he/she needs for being of average wealth for the rest of their life expectancy (including their wealth already amassed) then tax all that exceeds it with 50%, payable with at least 5% during the oncoming 10 years plus interest.
_jayrope
@Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦 Seems funds from taxing the rich would be at least equally well invested into education, after all that could fundamentally support any changes we've to make to live a sustaining life with the planet.
@Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@jrp not wrong. But education is a more complicated subject. Education in Hungary will look very different than in Germany, for example. Consider the narratives about, say, LGBTQ+.

Climate transition, meanwhile, is both urgent and pretty clearly defined.
@_jayrope
Jarjan
Signed! Could not agree more!
:ms_tarot_sword: Sem :ms_tarot_sword:
Ok as a law student there are a couple of things I wanted to braindump about the tax-the-rich initiative.
As a preface - this is not to discredit the initiative. Even if it does not go through (which I suspect will be the case), the popularity it gained is already a strong enough message.
Enough bla-bla, lets get to my 2 main doubts:

- The commission is not required to act upon the initiative. Even with a totally valid initiative, they have no obligation whatsoever, to start a legislative procedure.
- The initiative is based on the art 115 TFEU, which requires a *unanimity* in the Council - the Eu institution that represents the national governments of the member states. This means that, even if the Commission does go through with the initiative, litteraly every single member state will have to agree to it. And with varying levels of democracy and socialistic tendencies in the member states, this seems unlikely to me.

To be fair I just hope that the initiative will stir enough shit up.
CommentateurAvisé 🇫🇷🇪🇺 4💉
Hello Michal,

I'm so glad to see that you have spread the news about this initiative.
French progressive people have massively signed it. We encourage other fellow European citizens to do so.

One can add that moving your money to avoid such a tax would mean getting out of the EU / Euro-area, I suppose it's quite different in terms of opportunities from moving from 🇨🇿, 🇩🇪 or 🇫🇷 to 🇫🇮 or🇧🇪, 🇵🇹 etc

Economist Gabriel Zucman & MEP Aurore Lalucq are also involved !
Gustav Lindqvist
unfortunately this is difficult to do in the EU framework as taxes is one of those things that member states have full sovereignty over.

Hope it does happen though!
HerrHerrmann
@luca Thanks for sharing and the writeup! 👏
Let’s gooooooo.
@Luca Hammer
⇧